Reordering loops?

middle_pickup

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: I thought about putting this in the feature request, but I don't know if it's something that is possible. I also have the suspicion that if it was written into the Mastermind's firmware that it somehow might degrade the sound. (This feature just seems to good to be true!)

I've noticed some of the other switching units on the market like the Gigrig G2, and the new Boss ES-8/ES-5. They have the ability to reorder the loops to change up the sounds. How are they doing this? Is the signal being converted to digital somewhere, then the different loops being moved around? Will we ever see this kind of reordering feature in the Mastermind?
 
The Boss switchers use an analog switching matrix - it's basically a chip that has a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs and allows you to select, from a microprocessor, which input is connected to which output. The audio path is not digital at all, but it's not passive like relays are.

I don't know what's in the Gig Rig, but from their marketing and from other clues, I have a feeling they're using a LOT of relays in the G2, basically simulating what the switching chip does using a matrix of relays.

The Mastermind PBC uses a simpler arrangement - without needing to reorder loops, we could get away with less than 20 relays. We have more (40-ish) because of the series/parallel switching and other features, but something like the Gig Rig would have to have well over 100 relays to get the job done. The chip in the Boss switcher has the equivalent of 256 relays.

There's been a lot of confusion coming from the fact that Gig Rig "added" loop reordering in a firmware update. As I mentioned before, I've never seen one of their switchers in person, but there's simply no way that feature could be added in firmware - the capability had to be in the hardware from the beginning. The Gig Rig has a very limited user interface, so I think they needed to figure out some way to specify the loop reordering from the front panel buttons, and the ability to edit order is what was actually added in the firmware.
 
To answer your other questions - there's no way to add loop reordering to the current PBC hardware. No updated PBC is going to be released in the near future. I can't say that it will never happen, but there would be an awful lot of R&D that would have to happen before a new PBC would even start to be a possibility. I have concerns that a matrix switcher would not sound as good as a fixed order switcher, so I'd have to solve that problem first before it would start turning into an actual product.

As always, though, I listen to what customers are asking for. So, if loop reordering is a very important feature to you, let me know. I often prioritize projects based on how many user requests I get.
 
I found the idea technically interesting. I figured that there had to be a load of relays in the Gigrig G2. It doesn't seem that high tech from the look of it. That number of relays kind of explains the price...maybe. That's crazy that the Boss units work from an analog chip. I really thought that it would be some dumb COSMQUESZ-Rolandy piece of digital tech. I wonder if it's similar to the chip that Build Your Own Clone was producing for a while. I think that their switcher was programmable with reorderable loops. I also wonder about the potential sacrifice in audio quality going through that Boss chip...

As to the feature request, It's really not that big of a deal to me anyway. How often would you actually need to reorder the loops? It makes better sense to me to put thought into your signal path from the start. As is the Mastermind is already an amazing piece of gear. Once I get my board built with the PBC at the helm, it's going to make the headaches of playing lead guitar while directing a band a thing of the past.
 
I have to back Zach here. I would advise against investing a great deal of time into researching the reordering capabilities. Of course pedal order is a matter of taste, but with few exceptions, most of us seem to agree on one. Especially aiming at pro users, the music we get called up to play alludes to people's auditory habits and those are definitely served with the common order more so than any other.
 
And to add my twopenneth - I migrated from a Mastermind GT to a Gigrig G2 and have just returned to the RJM fold with a PBC. Before I did so, I upgraded my G2 with the firmware that allowed for loop re-ordering, thinking "gosh, this will be such a cool thing to do - phaser or comp before/after drive, moving the wah around, etc ...!" The truth - didn't use it once in any live patches. Not once. Because probably like most of us, there are certain sounds I use a lot, because I love them, and so they're the sounds I use a lot (doh ...!). And it tends to be I prefer a phaser after a drive, or some drives before a comp vs. other drives after; so those are my sounds and hence that's the order the pedals stay in.

I'm not dissing Gigrig (who do make some great gear), but I think this is one of things that sounds really cool on paper, but in practice you end up not really needing to use it.

But maybe I'm just a Luddite ...
 
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. I get a lot of people asking about this feature, more so than any other feature by far. But I'm glad I'm sticking to my position of "clean audio path is the #1 priority". Using a matrix chip has many benefits, but it does introduce some capacitance, resistance and harmonic distortion to the signal path, where relays don't add any appreciable amount of any of those things.
 
Ron I absolutely agree. Audio quality should be paramount.

In our experience the people that actually take full benefit matrix capabilities are outliers. As others have said, traditional sounds dominate the market. Boss and now GigRig have started to main stream the idea (Sound Sculpture have been doing it for years) and it makes sense that you'd get a lot of requests for it. People think it's a cool idea and would love to have the option, but the reality is most players will eventually settle on a pretty traditional signal path and leave it at that.
 
If I could add my $.02... It would be nice to have the ability to reorder two or three loops for testing gain stages.
 
A movable insert point to connect Fx loop or Dry Out would be useful if using more or less than four effects at the end of the chain.

Also a Mini Effect Gizmo with movable loops and a movable insert point might satisfy those that feel the need for this option.
 
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