RG 16 Boss GT-5 Issue, Clarification. Latency?

W

wtews

New Member
Hey everyone,

New to the board and new to the RG-16. I have just completed my rig setup and so far am blown away by what the RG-16 has allowed me to do.

I do however have a clarification question, and a bit of a problem. I'll start with the question.

Attached is a diagram of my setup. I am using the 4-cable method with the Boss GT-5 processor. Now, as I understand it, when I enable loop 4, I am placing the Boss GT5 in front of the 5150II's preamp, and when I enable loop 5, I am placing the Boss GT5 after the 5150II's preamp. When I enable both loops 4 and 5, the Boss GT5 is placed both before AND after the 5150II's preamp. Is this correct?

If so, is enabling loop 4 and thus putting the GT5 in front of the amp's preamp the same as me going from:

Guitar--->GT5 input--->GT5 output----> 5150II input ?

Or is it different, and if so, how is it different? I notice the sounds are not entirely the same in the two setups, so I'm wondering what the difference is, because it would be nice to get the same sounds I obtained when I used the guitar straight in to the gt5 and out to the 5150II's input (before I had the rg16).

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The technical issue I'm having has to do with when I switch effects or channels on the GT5.

Currently I am using a voodoo labs ground control as the main controller to send change messages to both the gt5 and the rg16. I am not using the 4 presets per bank function, but rather the 10 presets per bank. Not sure if that affects things as far as this problem goes.


Whenever the GT5 is enabled, with many of the effects, there seems to be some sort of a latency issue, especially with reverb or delay based patches. For instance, sometimes there is a very slight pop when going from a clean channel with GT5 delay
to the lead channel patch with reverb. Sometimes with other effects, (mostly delay-based) I will switch patches with the ground control and some of the last affected sound will follow over when the new one is engaged. This can make switching sounds seamlessly difficult, if not impossible.

After perusing the forums the only things I can possibly guess at would be DC leakage (which I have no idea how to fix) or some sort of midi latency.

Anyone?? I am so close to being completely satisfied with this setup, and any help would be appreciated. :-(

EDIT: Better Diagram

p.s. I noticed a typo in the "4 pedals and a floor-based effects processor connected using the "4 cable" method" http://www.rjmmusic.com/wiring/RG-16/RG-16_4Cable.pdf diagram. At the bottom whenever it says loop 4, I believe you are referring to loop 5, and where it says loop 5, I think it's supposed to be loop 6. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this confused me for a bit when I was setting up. ;)
 

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the set up looks correct. as far as the wiring of the loops is concerned. What I don't know which could cause some issues using the 4 cable method is the type of fx loop the peavey amp has. If its series then it will work as expexted, however if its a parallel loop then it will give you problems with the gt5 connected via 4cm.
 
to your first question:

if you are running like this: git - GT5 - 5150 as you did before the RG-16, you have the GT5 complete in front of the preamp.
while using the 4 cable method, you split the GT5 of into to effect devices and use one section in front of the preamp and on in the effectloop.
i don´t know how the GT5 works (never tried any of the boss multis), but with your new setup, you have a few effects of the GT5 in front of the amp and same after the preamp, which gives you a different sound.
for some effects, like delay, reverb (simply said all modulation and timebased effects) it is better to use them after the preamp.
but if you like the sound of the delay or chorus in front of your preamp better, than just set it up like this:
git- rg16 loop 4 send - input GT5 / output GT5 to loop4 return - 5150

now you have it set it up like before you used the RG-16.

maybe the buffer of the RG-16 causes a different sound as well. not all effectunits can handle the buffered signal very well.
try to set the buffer after loop 4 and listen if it sounds better as before - just try it and listen how it sounds.

@4x4uk:
the 5150s (and 6505s) have a serial loop, so no problem.


now for the second question:
as said before, i don´t know the GT5, but i understand your problem
i´m using a g-major and when i call up a preset which contains a pitchshifter effect, it takes 1 second longer until it is ready.
so i think those things have to do with the power of the processor and the complexer algorithm used by those effects.
your next problem: the delay spillover....you should be able do deactivate the spillover function.
the g-major does not do a spillover, when you switch from one delay preset to another delay preset with a different delay setup.
but it does a spillover, when using the same delay settings on both presets.
 
Hi there,

When connecting a processor with the 4 cable method, you're effectively dividing the processor into two separate units, one in front of the amp, one in the amp's loop. When you have both loops on the signal flow is as follows:

Guitar -> GT5 1st half -> 5150 preamp -> GT5 2nd half -> 5150 power amp

It's been ages since I've used a GT5 so I don't remember the details. You'll need to find out if the order of effects is adjustable. Most importantly, if the GT5's effects loop can be moved. Any effect that is before the GT5's effects loop will end up in front of the amp, any effect that's after the GT5's effects loop will end up in the amp's effects loop. If the position of the loop is adjustable, you can just move the GT5's effects loop to the end of the effects chain, which will put all effects in front of the amp and none in the amp's effects loop.

My best guess for the latency issue is that the RG-16 is switching more quickly than the GT5. So, when you switch patches, the RG-16 switches the GT5 into the signal path (and changes the amp channel if requested), then some time later the GT5 switches. That would explain why you're hearing a bit of the previous effect. I would do some experimenting to see if this is really the case. Older processors are more prone to having this switching delay, and unfortunately there isn't too much you can do about it. There are a few little tricks that will help a bit. For example: If you make a patch with no effects, you can call up that one when you're not using the GT5. That will prevent hearing unexpected effects once you do switch to an effected patch.
 
Thank you for all the help and suggestions!

So now I have a better understanding of how my GT-5 is placed within the context of the 5150. I actually CAN change the order of the loop and other effects in the GT5, so I will try putting it at the end and see how I fare. Hopefully this allows me to get some of the sounds I was able to obtain prior to the new setup when I literally had the GT5 in front of the amp.

I had a feeling the problem might have been with the GT-5 being a dinosaur effects processor. The reason I am using the it is because there are sounds in that unit that I've created over the last few years that I found impossible to re-create using the GTPRO or the GT-10, which broke my heart.

Site admin's reply did make me realize something that might be relevant. Before I incorporated the Ground Control Pro, I was using the GT5 on the floor and had it connected to the midi in of the RG16, so it was being used both as a processor and as the controller for switching changes in the RG16. I do not recall any lag when I was doing this, so I may try that again just to be sure. Does anyone know if it would make sense to say that:

A) if it is the case that the GT5 is changing more slowly than the RG16 in my current setup, where control messages are sent to both from an outside source;
B) that if I am using the gt5 to control the RG16 the lag would be canceled out because the rg16 can only respond as fast as the gt5 can send messages?

Anyone? It seems like that makes sense logically, but my knowledge of midi is so limited that I'm unsure.

I will try to use the gt5 as a controller and see if I still have the same lag issues or not to attempt to confirm this.

I'll let you guys know how it goes! Again, thanks for all the help!
 
there can be up to about a 1 second delay when switching patches on gt units. It takes longer when the fx chain and combination of pedals/amp models is significantly different to the previous patch. So to minimize the problem wherever possible keep the fx chains the same ie same pedals in the same order and even though your not using them have the same amp model selected.

ALso not sure if you can do this with your foot controller but i can with mine put the GT5 and the gizmo on different midi channels ie gt on ch1 and gizmo on ch 2 then send patch change messages on ch1 and ch2 ( some foot controllers will also allow you do add a small additional delay between channel messages
 
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