Ventris Nemesis Skipping PC Messages

recordingpro

Well-Known Member
Ok...I've been at this for about a week with programming my PBC/6x, and I've set the button pages up how I plan to use them (for the most part). I'm just working out the kinks at this point and one MAJOR one seems to be an intermittent one (although frequent).

When I go from preset to preset, sometimes (about every 8th preset change) a PC command is missed (or ignored...who knows?) by the Ventris or the Nemesis. The Ventris DOES seem to have more trouble than the Nemesis, but they are both experiencing this issue. Has anyone else experienced this? I can also reproduce this by using my "MIDI Scroll" page and cycling through them very fast. That usually triggers it as well. But I've also tested it with the Presets page and I'll count to 3 before switching presets, but inevitably a PC command will be missed at some point.

I'm uploading my latest config file. Hopefully Ron or someone can tell me I'm doing something wrong. I REALLY hope its not my pedals.

P.S. It might also be worth noting that I can reproduce this using a factory default config file and just adding the two pedals to the device list and change presets and wait for them to misfire.

PLEASE HELP!
 

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A settings issue wouldn't cause that. I recommend connecting one of the two pedals directly to the PBC's MIDI output (if it isn't already) and see if the situation improves. If you have a computer with a MIDI interface, you could use a MIDI monitor program to watch the messages coming out of the PBC and see if it's dropping messages.

All I can say for sure is that, almost every this kind of issue shows up, it ends up being in a bad cable or pedal. Or, there are too many devices in the MIDI chain, but you don't have enough devices where it would be an issue.
 
I’m using a disaster area midi4 box as a junction so I can hook the bloom up but it just passes straight through that box for the nemesis and ventris.
So you think I might have a cable issue? Or something wrong inside that box maybe? What would I look for in particular if I were to look inside the cable.
 
Looking at the cable isn't too likely to produce results, measuring is better.

But, I'd start with bypassing that midi box temporarily and see if the situation improves. Cable problems usually result in MIDI not working at all, but bad MIDI thrus can cause occassional data loss.
 
I bypassed the midi box last night and problem persisted. At this point, I'm pretty much ruling out a bad cable. I can't see how it COULD be. I'm almost to the point of chucking my Nemesis/Ventris out the window and ordering some Specular Tempuses. Especially if you didn't see anything wrong with my config file.
 
Hey, for what it's worth: I use a really similar setup to what you have (6x, nemesis, ventris, Disaster box, bloom...pretty crazy). I looked at your system file and it's similar to mine too in several ways. I've used it for awhile now and haven't had the issues you've described to my knowledge - do you know what commands are being missed or ignored? I do notice that MIDI devices can't always keep up if I press buttons too fast, but in a set I don't typically press buttons all that quickly.

Anyway, just curious -- maybe I can help!
 
I've deployed several different forms of testing while trying to troubleshoot this issue. I'm a Software Test Engineer so I figured I should be able to figure this out, but this one is stumping me.

First, was to remove all possible things from the equation, so I did that. Then I would have my Nemesis and Ventris set to change to their respective PC #1 when I select Preset 1 on the PBC. Then Preset 2 on the PBC would send PC #2 to the Nemesis and Ventris. I went up sequentially until I reached Preset 8 and then walked it back down, always counting to 3 Mississippi in between preset selections (in order to give the Nemesis/Ventris plenty of time to keep up). Inevitably, using this method of testing always ends up in a dropped PC message at some point, and it doesn't take long, and it seems to be random whether it's the Nemesis or the Ventris that drops the message.

One thing I haven't done yet, is completely isolate the Nemesis or Ventris and just test them individually. This requires tearing my board down somewhat and I wasn't ready to do that just yet since I have gigs all this week lol.
 
I did submit an inquiry to Source Audio to see if they could shed any light on this issue or at the very least tell me if anyone has ever experienced this. I will say that my Nemesis will do something quirky every once in a blue moon. I haven't experienced it yet with my new PBC/Zuma set up, but before I had MIDI, every once in a blue moon (like 3-6 months could go by at a time), the Nemesis will just stop outputting sound regardless of whether its engaged or bypassed and the only way I can correct it (to my knowledge) is to power it down and back up. The only thing different now is that I have a Zuma instead of a Voodoo PP2+, but its only been living on its new board for a couple weeks now so it's hard to say if the Zuma resolved it or not. I figured it might be worth mentioning though.
 
Yeah, I think that the best thing to do is to monitor the PBC output if you can. That way you can be sure that the PBC isn't (or is) failing to send messages.
 
For software, Snoize MIDI Monitor on the Mac, MIDI-OX on the PC. Both are free.

Then, the Emu Xmidi 1x1 and iConnectivity mio are USB-to-MIDI adapters that I use all the time. Both work well.
 
ok I ordered one of those Emu Xmidi 1x1s. I'll get to the bottom of this and report back! Thanks for all the support guys!
 
I did submit an inquiry to Source Audio to see if they could shed any light on this issue or at the very least tell me if anyone has ever experienced this. I will say that my Nemesis will do something quirky every once in a blue moon. I haven't experienced it yet with my new PBC/Zuma set up, but before I had MIDI, every once in a blue moon (like 3-6 months could go by at a time), the Nemesis will just stop outputting sound regardless of whether its engaged or bypassed and the only way I can correct it (to my knowledge) is to power it down and back up. The only thing different now is that I have a Zuma instead of a Voodoo PP2+, but its only been living on its new board for a couple weeks now so it's hard to say if the Zuma resolved it or not. I figured it might be worth mentioning though.
I'm super interested in what results you get from monitoring MIDI and from talking to SA directly; I've talked to them a few times and the main thing they've said is that neither device can handle more than one message at a time; I'm actually really excited to try the new system / wait action that Ron just released (thanks Ron!) to see what possibilities that opens up.
 
Ok so I got the Emu MIDI cable so I can watch MIDI messages now. I played around with it a little last night and after I filtered out the MIDI clock, it looked like there wasn't anything extra at all on channel 3 (Ventris) when I changed presets. However, every time I changed presets, I would see a group of 3 messages go out on channel 1 (Bloom). I don't have a saved capture because it was late last night and I wasn't thinking, but I'll get one for you guys to see soon.

In any case, it looked like every time I changed presets, the PBC would send the correct PC commands to the Nemesis and Ventris along with "Modulation Wheel" and "Breath Controller" CCs on Channel 1 to the Bloom. Now, I went and checked my file and I don't even have the expression pedal engaged on any of my presets currently so this doesn't really make sense to me so I'm posting my file again to make sure you guys don't see anything that looks wonky with my setup.

Until I can get a saved MIDI capture for you guys to look at, I figured I'd post what I have.
 

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You have a few IA buttons that are programmed to send CCs to the Bloom, and they have Send on Preset Change turned on. With that setting enabled, those buttons will send their CCs every time you change presets. Those are the messages you're seeing.

"Modulation Wheel" and "Breath Controller" are just the standard MIDI CC names for those CCs. The standard CC definitions are very synth-oriented and are usually ignored or redefined in pedals.
 
I keep getting confused about what these terms mean and I've watched video after video to try to clear it up so let me get it straight.

Are you saying that even if I don't have those buttons engaged for a particular preset that they will STILL send any messages inside their action block for ANY preset that I select so long as that check box is checked for "Send on Preset Change"?

If this is true, can you give me an example for why I would ever want to check this box at all?
 
That's correct. If the button is programmed to be on for that preset, the on messages will be sent. If the button is programmed to be off for that preset, it will send the off messages instead.

Let's say you have two IA buttons defined, one that turns on the bypass of the Nemesis and one that controls the bypass of the Ventris. Then, in each preset, you can program those buttons to be on if you want the pedal to be on, or off if you want the pedal to be bypassed. As you select presets in the Mastermind, the button states will switch on or off as programmed, automatically turning the pedals on or off to match,

That's only one example, but probably the most common use of that feature.
 
that first sentence up there makes perfect sense to me now! thank you!

So back to my original problem of the Nemesis/Ventris skipping messages. I have been in talks with Source Audio about my issues so I'll do a little more testing this weekend and send them my results. But ultimately what I'm seeing is that the PC/CC messages are going where they are supposed to. So...unless the Nemesis/Ventris are getting bogged down by filtering out messages designated for other channels, I don't know WHY they would skip a preset. And I might add that I always wait 3 seconds before switching PC commands to give them time to load into the pedal before I switch again.
 
that first sentence up there makes perfect sense to me now! thank you!

So back to my original problem of the Nemesis/Ventris skipping messages. I have been in talks with Source Audio about my issues so I'll do a little more testing this weekend and send them my results. But ultimately what I'm seeing is that the PC/CC messages are going where they are supposed to. So...unless the Nemesis/Ventris are getting bogged down by filtering out messages designated for other channels, I don't know WHY they would skip a preset. And I might add that I always wait 3 seconds before switching PC commands to give them time to load into the pedal before I switch again.
Did you ever find a solution for this? I also have a Ventris and Nemesis, and sometimes they act weird. In particular, their bypass state when I recall presets. I save their state on a preset (with send on preset change) but sometimes it seems to ignore it.
 
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Source Audio pedals handle MIDI very weirdly. I've owned several of their pedals, and I've never been able to get them working to my satisfaction with MIDI. Part is that they seem to require a gap in between MIDI signals (otherwise a command might get missed). They also just don't do MIDI bypass like most other pedals. It's very annoying, and I wish they would revamp how they handle MIDI to conform a little more to what most other pedal makers do.
 
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