Mastermind LT and ENGL Ironball SE, sending CC

[jaguar]

Hi, I'm new to the Mastermind LT. I really like it, but maybe need some tips. If there's a better place to ask stuff like this, which at first it will be simple for many, please let me know.

I'm using the MMLT to control an Engl Ironball SE.
I added a new "generic" device and got it to use midi channel 1.
Presets, Program Change (PC), work fine so that's already good.
However, from the page setup I have not managed to get it to react on CC. Let's say I'm trying to use Gain Boost, Midi CC #22.

What could be some troubleshooting tips? Thanks in advance for any help.
(I already updated to firmware MM501)

 

[jaguar]

Nevermind... it seems it's the amp that's somehow acting strange.
I redefined the midi channel on the amp to test, and CCs started to work well... but not PCs. Then when redefining the channel again, PCs worked again. A bit strange.

I found a post which describes what I was seeing:

Forum

www.soundonsound.com

Anyway, now looking at the amp.

 

[jaguar]

Hi, I continued doing tests.
On presets 1 to 4, I have PCs 1 to 4. On the IA page, I setup CCs to individual features, e.g. Gain Boost, Master Volume Boost, Delay, Tap Tempo.

However, after midi channel setup of the amp, either...
1) PCs work but not CCs
2) CCs work but PCs not, or very sporadically, once in a while.

I made these videos to show the behaviour:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hdPvFlneS-QvG69mQ4AHC6M4fr-5qxET

So far, I suspect more the amp, as I at some point send PCs correctly, or send CCs correctly.
Do you think it could be an issue with the setup of the MMLT?

Any info would be very appreciated.

 

[rjmmusic]

It seems that at least one part of what's going on is that you have the LT sending to more than one MIDI device when you change presets. Because of this, it's probably reading the wrong channel when in the learn process.

In the one video where you go through the learn process and are selecting presets at the end, it looks like the amp is switching, but you give it a thumbs down. What's happening that's wrong?

 

[jaguar]

Thanks for the reply!

It seems that at least one part of what's going on is that you have the LT sending to more than one MIDI device when you change presets. Because of this, it's probably reading the wrong channel when in the learn process.

Aaaah, that could be it.
At some point I also setup an HX Stomp as a device, which would send using midi channel 2. I don't think I send any info on that preset, but definitely worth a check.

In the one video where you go through the learn process and are selecting presets at the end, it looks like the amp is switching, but you give it a thumbs down. What's happening that's wrong?

If you mean this one...
02 - CC ok PC not working.mp4

02 - CC ok PC not working.mp4

drive.google.com

0:00 PCs working fine. But shown in video 01, the CCs are not working.
0:17 Setup of channel. Normally done by sending a PC or CC message on the desired midi channel.
0:28 Presets using PCs are no longer working.
0:41 Changing to IA page. CCs for the individual functions are working as expected
1:30 Back to Presets with PCs. Some did work, but not all and not as expected. 1, worked ok; 2 no change; 3 no change; 4 change but not as expected; 3 change but not as expected; 2 worked ok; 3 no change.

So presets not working so thumbs down. Sorry, indeed maybe not so clear to see that PCs are not consistently working.

If any further tips would appreciate. Although it wouldn't be the best, maybe and hopefully its a user error. I don't think I'm sending CCs while selecting a preset that would interfere (as I'm not saving the IA page).

 

[rjmmusic]

When you're programming presets, and selecting which channel & other features are selected for the Ironball, are you programming them on the amp or on the LT (using the IA buttons)?

If you're programming presets on the amp, you need to check all of the IA buttons that are set up to control the amp and make sure that every one of them has Send on Preset Change turned on. This will insure that those buttons don't trigger during a preset change and give you unexpected results.

 

[jaguar]

Thanks for all the help. Getting there, but not yet.

Ok, so I deleted the Helix device I had on midi channel 2.
Good news is that it's now consistent behaviour. After amp learning midi channel 1, CCs work consistently. And PCs do not work or work randomly. Pretty much as the video above.

The bad news is that before, by re-doing the learning process multiple times, at some point the PCs would work. Now, after trying many times, the PCs do not work since deleting the Helix device.

When you're programming presets, and selecting which channel & other features are selected for the Ironball, are you programming them on the amp or on the LT (using the IA buttons)?

I'm programming the preset on the amp. The way it works is that when a PC is sent the amp switches to it. There you select the features and if different to before you "store" with a button on the amp. Now with that PC it the amp will have that combination of features.

If you're programming presets on the amp, you need to check all of the IA buttons that are set up to control the amp and make sure that every one of them has Send on Preset Change turned on. This will insure that those buttons don't trigger during a preset change and give you unexpected results.

Ok, will try that next.
I have Page 2 as IA. In the 4th screenshot above is the setting of one button:

https://www.rjmmusic.com/forum/index.php?attachments/screen-shot-2023-08-14-at-08-48-51-png.2891/

It has Name, Device, CC Number, Off Value, On value.

I don't see a "Send on Preset Change" there. Also not in the preset setup. I see something similar in Device, "CC on preset", but then it's not something for multiple buttons.

Is it somewhere else? Sorry, didn't get that part so well.

 

[jaguar]

Ok, got it now.
It was on Device. I go to the one I setup for the Ironball SE. Then CC on Preset, it was ON I changed to OFF.
Now it's working!! All as expected!!

Many, many thanks!!
And sorry for the time, but hopefully it will also help others setup if needed.

Will test some more but it all looks good!

 

[jaguar]

As lower priority, it would be nice for my understanding...
What was happening?
So the preset was also sending CCs and it was interfering? If so, which CCs was it sending and why? From the IA page button, by default I had them all on off. So does that mean it was sending 6 (one for each IA button) CCs with "off" at the same time of sending the Preset PC?

 

[rjmmusic]

As lower priority, it would be nice for my understanding...
What was happening?
So the preset was also sending CCs and it was interfering? If so, which CCs was it sending and why? From the IA page button, by default I had them all on off. So does that mean it was sending 6 (one for each IA button) CCs with "off" at the same time of sending the Preset PC?

Yes, that's exactly what was happening. When you change presets, the Mastermind will send any specified PC messages, then after that it will go through all the buttons on all pages. Any button that has Send on Preset Change turned on will send its message(s), based on its current on/off state. So your PC might be telling the amp one thing, but your IA buttons are probably telling it something different. The buttons have priority because they are sent last.

As you discovered, Send CCs on Preset Change in Devices is a faster way to disable this feature for a device.

 

[jaguar]

Thanks for the info and explanation.

,,, Any button that has Send on Preset Change turned on will send its message(s), based on its current on/off state.

Where do I find this setting? The "Send on Preset" per button?

I looked at the manual, Version 4.2 4/10/2019.
"Editing Button Pages"
I go Edit Buttons. My Page 2 setup as Button Page Type CCs.
It says...


Which matches my LT:


Am I looking in the wrong place for the "Send on Preset" per button?
For my current setup, I'm ok. It's more for later on, as I add devices or look at different ways to use the controller and amp.

 

[rjmmusic]

That setting is only available in the editor software.

 

[jaguar]

Aaahhh, that explains it. So far I wanted to learn to do everything via the device itself, in case I need to make on the fly changes.
Ok, so next step is maybe to play around some with the editor software.
Thanks for the info!