PBC running with GT16?

S

sweetjonny

Well-Known Member
Hi.

RJM noob here.

I'm a Guitar tech working on a new midi rig with a guitatist.

We have an idea of using the Mastermind GT16 together with the PBC.

GT16 will be on stage at guitarists feet for the usual song/preset changes etc. on same board will be the new EvenMidi for parameter control of DD500 delay.

The PBC will be side stage with me on a pedalboard along with several effects pedals and other midi devices (Boss DD500 delay, Source Audio dimensions reverb, 2x ABY-not) and function switching (2x gig rig remote loopy2).

My question is, can the PBC in this circumstance be used much like the Effects gizmo would when paired with the GT?

The reason I want to use the PBC is the I/O is more flexible for us and everything will be mounted on multiple pedalboards (for ease of fly shows).
Also if the buttons and display on the PBC will allow me to change presets for the guitarist on occasion, mirroring these Buttons pages between the two units if you will.
but also allow me to have control side stage on the PBC over certain other parameters on the fly (tweak presets, change output parameters etc), but NOT have those button pages mirror on the GT...

Is two way compatibility and functionality of this sort possible between these two units? Will they talk to each other the way I want?
How will this work when in terms of editor software? Will I just be dealing with the GT Editor?

Also, is there an in built Tuner on the GT? as there is on the PBC?

I appreciate this my not be a conventional approach, but very much appreciate any advise.
 
Yes, the PBC can be used exactly like an Effect Gizmo, although you'll probably want to do it a little differently than how it's done in the Gizmo.

I recommend setting up everything in the PBC first: presets, songs, setlists. Then, using the Export function of the editor, export all of the presets, songs and setlists to a file, which you can load into the GT editor.

In the PBC, set up a device for the GT, and in the GT, set up a device for the PBC. Set them to the same MIDI channel. Set MIDI Receive channel to that same MIDI channel on both devices. Turn on Bidirectional MIDI on both. In the PBC's device list, the GT device should have MIDI Port set to MIDI In. That should allow preset changes on one device to affect the other.

To connect the two, just connect a 5-pin active or 7-pin MIDI cable from the GT's MIDI output to the PBC's MIDI input.

There's no tuner on the GT, sorry, there's no audio input at all.
 
Thanks for the swift reply, Ron.

Thats amazing news. I did think it should be pretty straight forward.

So can I limit the button pages mirrored between both to specificied ones? For example, the GT to only ever have the Presets and Loops pages and banking available and any changes here will happen on both devices...
However at anytime, I'd like to be able to access other pages and set up mode etc on the PBC only, to make settings changes and even preset changes on the fly simultaneously WITHOUT those pages showing up on the GT and confusing the Guitarist!
But indeed, any edits I make during that process to a preset or a loop WILL be mirrored instantly.

For example, during a performance, the guitaist may ask me to make changes to the current or next songs presets on the fly or I need enter setup mode, I want to be able to do that from the PBC but not have the pages I need to access to do so, visually represented on his GT.


Also, I'm assuming that while I'm doing that, the he cannot continue to operate his GT as there would be conflicting button presses and commands going on between units?

And another thought would be to do more complex edits in the Software from side stage with my Laptop connect that can be also be done on the fly and instantly updated on the all units, during the show. In that circumstance, which units USB port should the laptop be plugged into?

Also, can you confirm the true current draw of the GT16? does it really require the full 2A?!
 
Page changes will not be mirrored between units, only preset and song changes. Loop changes on the GT will be registered on the PBC, but loop changes on the PBC will not be registered on the GT.

In order to use the editor on both, you would need the Mastermind GT Editor and the Mastermind PBC editor running at the same time, and USB cables running to both units. Changes would have to be made to both units independently. I definitely don't recommend doing this in a live situation.
 
Ok that will probably work out prefectly. Feel very confident now i know what is possible.

Can you also confirm the exact current draw of the GT16? 1000ma is considerably more than most pedal power supplies put out... Id rather avoid a wallwart here.
can this be phantom powered via the PBC? probably not, right?
 
sweetjonny said:
Ok that will probably work out prefectly. Feel very confident now i know what is possible.

Can you also confirm the exact current draw of the GT16? 1000ma is considerably more than most pedal power supplies put out... Id rather avoid a wallwart here.
can this be phantom powered via the PBC? probably not, right?
Click to expand...

It really is 1000mA, those LCDs draw a lot of current. I don't know of any pedal power type supply that can power it, except the Gig Rig Generator.

The PBC doesn't supply phantom power, but you could use a phantom power adapter to combine the MIDI connections and power together into a single MIDI cable.
 
perhaps I could use a strymon power supply with a current double over 2 of its out puts which are 500ma each... unless you recommend having a little extra current headroom as that would only sit at 1000ma precisly.
 
You would have to ask Strymon about that - make sure it's ok to do. I should also mention that GT current draw is variable, depending on mostly on the colors of your LCDs, and if phantom powering, the length of the cable you're using.
 
Strymon state on their website that this is possible.

Will the GT current draw ever vary above 1000ma?

good point about midi cable length... i expect that one to be 25M! what is the maximum recommended length of midi cabl for both data flow and phantom power?
 
sweetjonny said:
Strymon state on their website that this is possible.

Will the GT current draw ever vary above 1000ma?

good point about midi cable length... i expect that one to be 25M! what is the maximum recommended length of midi cabl for both data flow and phantom power?
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% certain if it will ever exceed 1000mA, but it's probably a safe number. I did the testing years ago, and I would have chosen a number that was a bit above the highest current draw I ever saw. However, a very long cable can change that.

MIDI states the maximum length to be 40ft / 12m. However, I have built 75ft / 23m cables before and they've worked, at least as far as data is concerned. A lot will depend on the quality of the cable used. Really, the only way to do it is build it and see what happens.

Power is another story. I would not expect that to work with a cable that long. Even at 25ft, I start doubling up the power wires, using two per pin, otherwise the voltage drop down the cable gets too large. My guess is that you'll have to power the GT with its own power supply and not phantom power it, unless you can find some unusually thick MIDI cable.
 
Hi Ron. Me again.

Re. cable length I'm now looking into options for MIDI over Ethernet... do you have any opinions or knowledge on this at all? But I don't think we will be going over 20M now anyway.

And some other thoughts on using this configuration.

Will there be any issue or miscommunication between the PBC and GT16 when it comes to using combinations of the Expression pedal inputs, External Switches and Function Switching. Will the PBC respond to those commands coming from the GT16 and visa versa?
And what about setting up a global tempo between units that can be tapped in on either unit and registered on each?


And perhaps you can elaborate again on the over all functionality between the units... for example, in song/setlist mode, I'd like to be able to make preset changes on the PBC for the guitarist, should he miss the changes himself on the GT16 during a show... obviously there are more buttons on the GT16 that cannot be replicated on the PBC, however I can't see us having anymore than 8 presets for any given song anyway... could song presets be mirrored and respective changes be registered on both/either units?
 
Also now adding in a Mini effects Gizmo between loops 4 and 5 of the PBC. again can you see any issue with this registering effectively between PBC and GT16?
 
Each of those things you mention depends on how you intend to use them. For example, you can turn on MIDI Merge on the PBC, so that incoming expression pedal messages from the GT are forwarded through the PBC to your effects. But the PBC doesn't recognize or do anything with those messages itself, it just passes them along.

You could assign buttons on the GT to send CC messages that control function switches on the PBC. External switches are the same as the built in buttons as far as MIDI is concerned.

Tempo is tricky. Any tempo coming in from the GT will override any tempo set in the PBC, unless the PBC is set to tempo master, in which case it will ignore any tempo coming from the GT. There isn't any way to have both units able to affect tempo equally, one always has to be in charge.

No problem with the Mini Effect Gizmo, it's just another MIDI device.
 
Perhaps its better I explain the planned rig and basic signal path. This is all hypothetical still as I want to get this all right in my head before we build and would appreciate you're input again.
We'll have 3 Boards in total with an unconventional amp setup where amps will be switched in and out per preset.

I've highlighted in red areas which I think my be problematic.

Stage Board - For guitarist on stage

GT16/ 4x expression Knobs into GT16 (to control parameters of remote Boss DD500)/ 4x eternal switches into GT16 (Tap tempo, Master output Mute, Bank Up/Down)/ Tuner/ Radial SGI (to handle guitar in long cable run to "Brain" Board)/ Midi-ethernet interface for long midi run between "Brain" and stage boards.
Strymon Zuma powering it all (current doubler cable to power GT16)

"Brain" Board - side stage with tech (me)

PBC/ Mini Effects Gizmo (between loops 4-5 pbc)/ Y-Not 1 (Used either in loop1 or before PBC to split to clean amp. midi control from GT16/PBC)/ Y-Not 2 (Used in another loop to plot out to Bass amp. midi control from GT16/PBC)/ Several mono and stereo FX pedals/ GFI Specular Tempus (midi control from GT16/PBC)/ Boss DD500 (midi control from GT16/PBC. Tap tempo received from GT16 only. CC messages received from GT16 expression inputs)/ Stereo LEFT and RIGHT out of PBC/ Midi Thru split box/ Radial SGI (to handle guitar in long cable run from Stage Board)/ Midi-ethernet interface for long midi run between "Brain" and stage boards.
Various Strymon powering it all.

Amp Split Board - side stage also.

2x Y-Not (splitting L and R out from PBC to 4 amps in total. receiving midi from PBC/GT16)/ Various "always on" pedals (receives Bass amp out from Y-not 1 on "Brain" Board)/ Midi Thru split box.
Strymon Zuma powering


So in this setup, the PBC will basically act like an Effects Gizmo. Does the GT16 need to be set as the "Master" controller here?
I'd like to have the GT16 and PBC mirror the following:

> Song and Preset pages where changes made on either unit are registered respectively. ( I may need to do preset changes during a performance for the guitarist on occasion). I know there is an issue of less buttons on PBC but presets per song will not exceed 8 buttons anyway.
> Turn loops on/off on fly from PBC while GT16 is in song/preset mode. (may need to quickly turn off/on loops within presets during performance). Banks of presets can be scrolled through as there will be more loops than buttons.

Id like to be able to enter Setup mode on the PBC and have setup changes register between units but not display those pages on GT16.

Can you also see any issue with the points highlighted in red?

When making changes in both editors, can I simply edit in either PBC or GT editor and load file into the other unit to "sync" them?

I hope this explains more how I intend to use things.

Again, I appreciate your patience in helping me with this...
 
Most of that should work as long as you turn on MIDI Merge on the PBC (so that it forwards any messages coming from the GT), and set MIDI Clock to Slave on the PBC (so that it forwards MIDI clock from the GT)

Then, set up a device entry in the GT for the PBC and a device entry for the PBC in the GT. Set MIDI Receive Channel in both devices to the same channel. Turn on "Bank Selects Song" in global settings on the PBC and GT. This should make song and preset changes mirror each other as long as you keep the songs and presets identical across both units. Button layouts

You can set up buttons on the GT to control the PBC loops, and you can always control the PBC loops using the PBCs own buttons.

Setup mode on one unit will not affect the other unit. You'll need to maintain two separate settings files, one for GT and one for PBC, and use their respective editors. You can load the settings from one unit to another, but I don't recommend doing it because it will mess up your button configuration.
 
Thanks for another detailed reply, Ron.

So just to confirm, Song, Preset and Loop changes made on the PBC will all be affect and register on the GT16? I can do the same changes the guitarist would normally make during songs on PBC (if he misses a preset/song change while dancing around etc) and it would be completely in "sync" with the GT16? I don't want there to be any conflicting changes for Song, presets and Loops between units for obvious reasons.
 
As long as you set it up as I describe, then songs and presets will be in sync. Changes in loops on the PBC will not be reflected in the GT, though.
 
thanks Ron. so say I have 10 songs and 10 presets in a song, maybe I can orientate said buttons on the on the Bottom 2 rows of GT16 and fro PBC all buttons except the loops button? Would this layout work well between units? (obviously i'll be missing a button on GT where the screen is on PBC).
 
The button layouts don't have to match at all - the two units just report preset and song numbers to each other. Specific button presses are not communicated between the two.
 
rjmmusic said:
This should make song and preset changes mirror each other as long as you keep the songs and presets identical across both units. Button layouts
Click to expand...

Sorry Ron seems I misread/misunderstood your last reply where you mentioned button layouts. Can you elaborate? if specific button presses are not communicated, how can the units be mirroring each other?

seems I'm missing something
 
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