I have been using the PCB 10 for about a year now and I have had this intermittent issue with some of the loop buttons not engaging . We have (2) PCB 10 controllers, one on the main pedalboard downstage and an additional PCB 10 living offstage in guitar world that is attached via midi to help assist with switching . What happens is sometime times a loop button will not turn off on the main pedalboard , but the PCB in guitar world will be able to turn off that particular loop button . I have had almost every possible combination of what controller can turn on and off a particular loop . My first reaction was that it was a faulty button / switch , but after testing the switches everything looked ok as far as that goes . What seems to work is to unplug the power on the pedalboard and re boot the PBC with everything plugged in , but I can't keep doing this to clear the issue . Does this issue have anything to do with having 2 PBC'S running together? Could it be a firmware issue ?. Can anyone help with this , I would greatly appreciate any feedback . Thank you
Button Issue with PBC 10
- Thread starter JBZ
- Start date
I would not think it's the PBC firmware or the fact you're using another to slave it. There could be a trigger to not repeat or ignore maybe?
If it's not a setting, you could try another cable. If you're running very long distances and/or the cables are good, that can lead to latency or interference from other sources creating the unresponsive guitar PBC. You could try to shorten the distances to see if this corrects. Thinking out loud what is being sent and how many events are occurring? Look at your events to see what is being sent. Another consideration if very long distances is trigger those midi changes another way i.e. computer and send the signal via Ethernet over longer distances. Ron may be able to pinpoint it better.
If it's not a setting, you could try another cable. If you're running very long distances and/or the cables are good, that can lead to latency or interference from other sources creating the unresponsive guitar PBC. You could try to shorten the distances to see if this corrects. Thinking out loud what is being sent and how many events are occurring? Look at your events to see what is being sent. Another consideration if very long distances is trigger those midi changes another way i.e. computer and send the signal via Ethernet over longer distances. Ron may be able to pinpoint it better.
If this is something that happens often enough that you can do some testing here are some things to check:
Does it happen when the remote PBC is not connected?
When it happens, does the loop indicator on the main PBC screen show the loop on or off?
When it happens, does it persist? Do repeated presses of the loop button on the main PBC still not operate the loop?
When it happens, does it only happen on one loop, and the others are fine? And, if so, is it always the same loop or does it change?
Does it happen when the remote PBC is not connected?
When it happens, does the loop indicator on the main PBC screen show the loop on or off?
When it happens, does it persist? Do repeated presses of the loop button on the main PBC still not operate the loop?
When it happens, does it only happen on one loop, and the others are fine? And, if so, is it always the same loop or does it change?
Thank you for getting back to me on this . So to answer your questions .
- This happens when the 2nd remote PBC is connected . I always have the additional PBC hooked up when setting up the entire rig .
- So the way the pedalboard is being used at the moment , it is always in loop mode. The Only time the pedalboard goes into preset mode is to reset some MIDI changes that were made from the prior song. So as far as I have noticed the Loop Mode is showing in the “ON” position .
-When this issue happens it acts a bit different every time. Say you are trying to turn a loop on , it will not go on with the first tap , it might take an additional tap to engage . Sometimes when the loop is on it will take multiple taps to turn the loop off, like the light will still be lit up when tapping it , then it will shit off after a couple more taps . Then sometimes it will have a delayed reaction when turning the loop off., you’ll hit it and then it goes off a send later . Everything on the display always looks normal and this does not always happen to the same loop , it does seem to always be the bottom 5 buttons of loops though .
- So this usually only happens to one loop button.
- This does not happen very often , but when it does usually I am able to turn on or off the loop when I see her struggling on the main pedalboard . Also this is not an issue that I can recreate , it will randomly do this on its own.
- This happens when the 2nd remote PBC is connected . I always have the additional PBC hooked up when setting up the entire rig .
- So the way the pedalboard is being used at the moment , it is always in loop mode. The Only time the pedalboard goes into preset mode is to reset some MIDI changes that were made from the prior song. So as far as I have noticed the Loop Mode is showing in the “ON” position .
-When this issue happens it acts a bit different every time. Say you are trying to turn a loop on , it will not go on with the first tap , it might take an additional tap to engage . Sometimes when the loop is on it will take multiple taps to turn the loop off, like the light will still be lit up when tapping it , then it will shit off after a couple more taps . Then sometimes it will have a delayed reaction when turning the loop off., you’ll hit it and then it goes off a send later . Everything on the display always looks normal and this does not always happen to the same loop , it does seem to always be the bottom 5 buttons of loops though .
- So this usually only happens to one loop button.
- This does not happen very often , but when it does usually I am able to turn on or off the loop when I see her struggling on the main pedalboard . Also this is not an issue that I can recreate , it will randomly do this on its own.
Thanks Diezel,
When this issue first started happening my first reaction was that it was the midi cable . I have tested it mutiple times and everything turned out to be ok . It also is in a 50’ loom , which is the minimum length for most of the stages we are on to live everything off stage to guitar world where the second controller is . I did think about that as well , I know stuff starts acting up when you start running long runs like that . I’m not familiar with using Ethernet in replacement of midi . The thing that throws me off is that wouldn’t this issue persist every time if I was using the same midi cable for every show and the same combination of loop buttons are being used every night ? Evert time I have an issue with this , when I try to recreate it the follow day at soundcheck it will never happen . This does not happen very often , but often enough for me to search for answers on The RJM Forum , I need to figure this out . Haha. I appreciate the help .
50 feet is over the "official" MIDI recommendation of 40, but we have people routinely using 50 foot runs, sometimes more.
Is your cable good quality and properly shielded (pin 2 connected to the cable shield)? Is it running along anything noisy in the loom (like AC power)? What are you using to power the on-stage PBC?
Is your cable good quality and properly shielded (pin 2 connected to the cable shield)? Is it running along anything noisy in the loom (like AC power)? What are you using to power the on-stage PBC?
So , after opening up the midi cable and looking at how they had this cable wired it might make sense of why it's acting like this . It is an 8 wire Magami midi cable and there is no ground going to pin two . They had it wired with
Pin 1 -purple
Pin 2 - brown
Pin 3 - orange
Pin 4 - white
Pin 5 - red
Ground was just cut off as well as the yellow , blue and green .
The PBC is powered by a Pedal Power 3 Plus . Along with the other pedals on the board . There is no AC power on the loom . Power for PP3 is from separate power downstage .
Pin 1 -purple
Pin 2 - brown
Pin 3 - orange
Pin 4 - white
Pin 5 - red
Ground was just cut off as well as the yellow , blue and green .
The PBC is powered by a Pedal Power 3 Plus . Along with the other pedals on the board . There is no AC power on the loom . Power for PP3 is from separate power downstage .
Attachments
Sounds like you may have troubleshooted the culprit. No shield with a long cable like that running near other RF electrical fields while capacitance is higher is probably creating your intermittent issue. Adjust it and report back and let us know if it fixed the problem. Removing the brown replacing with shield should help.
Ok, I recommend rewiring it so that the ground/shield wire is connected to pin 2 on both sides. That's the MIDI standard, and will give you much better shielding. The Pedal Power 3 Plus should be ok as a power supply.
The 8 conductor Mogami cable is pretty thin stuff. It's probably ok for MIDI use, but it might not be at that length. If fixing the shielding doesn't do the job, I would consider making another cable using Best-tronics CA-0447, Carol C0744A or Belden 9738, which is the largest gauge stuff I know of that fits in a DIN connector. Those are all 24AWG, Mogami is 26AWG.
The 8 conductor Mogami cable is pretty thin stuff. It's probably ok for MIDI use, but it might not be at that length. If fixing the shielding doesn't do the job, I would consider making another cable using Best-tronics CA-0447, Carol C0744A or Belden 9738, which is the largest gauge stuff I know of that fits in a DIN connector. Those are all 24AWG, Mogami is 26AWG.
If pins 1 and 3 are not being used, he can effectively double up the wires for pins 4 & 5.
Sounds like a plan . Thank you very much for your guys help , This all makes since , after going over all of your troubleshooting suggestions . I am going to replace the entire cable with what was suggested and I'll let you know how everything works out . Thank you Again for your help . !
O yea, I forgot 5 pin din is referenced as necessary. Question for you Ron, are pins 1 & 3 being tied between units for clamping voltage potential differences when/if using two separate power supplies OR are pins 1&3 in this case used as bidirectional data?
Though he mentioned he's getting a new cable, for other reading, he (they) could also double up on 4 pairs of wires w/ground on pin 2 (since there's 8 conductors plus ground). It would effectively increase wire diameter. May be a bit of a challenge for some to solder, but it's doable.
1 and 3 are always used for bidirectional data, and both directions are optoisolated per the MIDI spec.
Yes, doubling up on wires does help a lot. We recommend that when phantom powering our MIDI controllers over long cables. With Mastermind GTs, it's pretty much required.
Yes, doubling up on wires does help a lot. We recommend that when phantom powering our MIDI controllers over long cables. With Mastermind GTs, it's pretty much required.
Until I get my new cable I will double up the wire I have in the existing cable I am using for safe measures . Thank you again for your help , I did not take all of this in consideration until I received your guys advice.