External tempo

[Bubule]

Hello,

I’m working on a way to be connected with the same tempo as the rest of the band.
Our keyboard works with Ableton, and he sends the click to the drummer.

In order to have the same (at the same moment, not only the same tempo), I’m searching the best way.

I Don’t know if it’s possible to send computer informations to my Axe-Fx II XL+ (which input, because Midi-In is connected to my MMGT16 ?) or to my MMGT16 (via Remote or USB input).

Is it possible ?
Do you have any experience of this ?

I don’t know which kind of information Ableton should send, but it’s the second step…

Franck

 

[Shanesplanet]

I can get my mmgt to sync to ableton via midi OR usb, but not useably so. I did find that the drift in the daw was making the gt change tempo so much that it would lock up the controller. This is not a mastermind only issue, I have noticed it with a few pieces of hardware. I could get it to 'sync' either way, but if you do it with both, you will get double time. To be quite honest, I have disabled the gt as a slave altogether when working in ableton. My best workaround has been to set up a click track in ableton and transmit the notes to a label on the mmgt for flashing. I cant seem to find the numeric values helpful at all on screen. Even right now im trying to fight this tempo nightmare. I also have a button setup for tap, and it was midi mapped to abletons tap. Currently I am using an axe fx, and it DOES sync to the mmgt just fine. So, i sync the axe to ableton (its kinda close), and then let the axe control the tempo flash referance on the mmgt. If i set values in the mmgt editor for tempo's, it goes nuts and I get a double time flash when ableton is running clock as well. As of note, I have disabled ALL the messages for the button I use as tempo. If you check 'on messages only' for the button, at least you can defeat the mmgt trying to show you a bs tempo when you mash the button. I wish i could be of more help, but i have been beating my head on this for a year and still dont know wtf to do. Im at the point where im having to use a click track in my ears, or rely on other avenues for timing. As of yet, the tempo on the mmgt is of less use than I had hoped. Of course, im full of user error here, so your mileage may vary. just occurred to me... Can you use the midi out from your keyboard player and sync to that? Effectively locking to a hardware device that doesnt drift like ableton? Just a try, but i didnt notice any better results via usb or midi thru various manufacture interfaces. For rock solid timing, have ableton send a track to your mmgt along with program and scene changes (yes automated is cheating like a mofo). I lock to the axe, but its not ON TIME like it sounds you need. If you need perfect timing for events in a daw, make a seperate track and tweak it forever. Same theory as when controlling lights or any other midi device. Besides, sync doesnt follow the actual BEAT you are on. The mmgt wont tell you the differance between count 1 or 3.... unless you make the click track have a LOOONGER note for count one, and the button on the mmgt stay lit longer. THIS will tell you when the ONE is coming. Actually, i make the 4 longer to give me notice the 1 is coming. Also be mindful that some color changes take longer than others on the mmgt. If you want it accurate, youll have to choose colors wisely and compensate for the lag by setting the click "track" to actually be ahead of the real timing. Obviously this wont work for the first beat of the first measure of when the track begins in relationship to the actual daw timing. Confused yet? I totally am.

 

[Bubule]

Thanks a lot for your feedback. I really like !

As I understand it's really difficult (almost impossible), to make something strong.
It's probably impossible because each element has its own tempo.

Yes, our keyboard player uses Ableton on his Mac. It’s our master. For his keyboards, some samples, and it sends clicks for our drummer.
I never have to give a tempo by myself.

1/ For me and the couple MMGT/AxeFx, I think AxeFx must be the master. It’s probably the best way, but the AxeFx Midi input is occupied by my MMGT-16 (And Axe-Fx USB often by my computer). So probably I have to feed it trough the MMGT-16 (USB, Remote-In, ...?).

Also, it's probably impossible to send orders only for AxeFx, because they work with the same channel number. How did you make your connections between Ableton and your Axe with MMGT connected ?


2 / If we try to send each 'beat', it's probably too overloaded. I think we can sync them just at the beginning of each song. The crucial moment is usually at the song start, before our drummer starts to play. After, he's the boss and we follow him.

If we have the right tempo first inside each Axe preset, and if we sync Axe at the song beginning, it would be enough.

If we are afraid that a drift between Ableton and our device intervenes, real problem is after a break. Ableton could send informations one more time during the break or each 10 or 20 measures. I don't think (but I don't know ) drifts could be enough to make delays or effects problems.

Franck

 

[Shanesplanet]

I sync my axe to ableton via usb (custom 5meter cable with powered belkin hub (took a yr to find a working set) and connect the RJM thru powered Midi to the axe. The hub handles the vocals, dmxis, axe and mixer. The axe has both usb and midi cables in, and another midi out to my g-force unit. I COULD use the usb on the rjm, but i really dont want more than one cable. As far as overloading the midi chain, a tempo sent every quarter note is like a drip from a faucet, not to worry. Have you tried to activate 'link' in ableton and lock to the keyboard's cpu with yours? I dont know, but if you are running a cpu along with his, you should be able to sync the two, tho i dont trust wifi much for live shows. If you can get a midi out cable, you can probably sync via midi into the RJM and then sync the axe to the RJM. I would think it makes more sense to sync the axe and just let the RJM be an island.

I havent found much point in syncing the RJM to the daw.. Reality is, the RJM doesnt really have anything to do with timing, other than watching my tempo light blink. I have synced it in the past via usb, while sending midi out to the axe. In the end, I didnt like so many cables at my feet, so.. Even the tempo light has little use because of the latency, tho i like it being there to aid in how fast I start a song. I use the RJM for a tap tempo command in ableton, but thats not really sync anyhow.

You can dig thru settings and get the axe OR the mmgt to respond to midi individually. The rjm doenst need to accept messages IF you are letting the axe see them instead. I am going to be programming axe changes live thru the daw via clips, but this opens an entirely new can of worms.

I have decided it easiest to NOT try and rely on the rjm for timing. Even when it is synced, the latency in the lights make it hard to lock to in person. The axe syncs pretty good tho. I feel im not of much help, theres just too many variables to consider, and its all so damn finicky.

Best to review and write down EXACTLY what you are trying to accomplish and why. I have spent hours running circles and in the end, I got what i wanted, just not as easily as I had hope, and not how I thought it would go. In the end it wound up being.

Daw usb out (daw master clock), into the axe fx (slaved). Bi-directional powered midi cable from the axe TO the Rjm. Clock on the RJM is OFF, tempo is NOT SHOWN. I made a button labeled 'tempo', set it to blink with tempo, and made it for 'on messages' only. This setup keeps the axe (the sound generator anyhow) synced with NO issues. I can still control tap tempo in ableton via a button on the RJM, but its pretty damn tough to tap just right anyhow, so i dont bother.

I run a one man show, so my needs are kind of excessive. If you dont need automation because you have a band doing things, try to keep it as simple as possible. Allowing someone else to control the tempo and just locking to them, would be much easier than trying to manage it all yourself at the same time. It all adds up fast. Toss in a lighting track, a click track, some automated patch changes and a few other hardware devices on the chain.... whew, makes my head hurt. Fwiw, 5meters is about as long as you can get on usb. IF you need usb extensions, I have found the 'amazon' brand female to male are surprisingly good cables. Nothing beats a solid cable however. Always buy 2 if youre going to. My setup only allows me to be 15' from the mixer to the computer hiding on stage.

Oh, ableton sends a re-sync message everytime you hit 'play' btw. You can overcome drift easily by stopping between songs and then going to a marker in ableton or a clip and just simply hitting launch or play.

 

[Bubule]

Sure, I don't need all things you need for a one man show. I only need to be ON the click before our drummer starts, if I start before him. He always works with click, and if I start out of his sync ...

I did not try anything, I ask to see what is possible and what are the best ways. When I'll be ok, I'll see with my keyboard player things we have to do to be sure it works. This is not my job, and I don't really know how MIDI works as a lot of guitarists. My keyboard player knows a lot of things about Midi and his devices. Sure, we'll have to work together, but I need to be most helpful with good ideas in order to reach my goal.

So, I understand the best way you found is to feed the Axe-Fx with its USB. If I do that, I don't think I'll be able to work with AxeEdit or FracPad in same time without disconnect USB wire. Or with a Hub ?
Now it seems MMGT is not anymore concerned, probably the best is to ask on Fractal forum how other people do.

 

[Shanesplanet]

You cant run axe edit or any other software when syncing the axe to usb. It will let you go back and forth without shutting down the programs however. I run all my gear thru a powered belkin hub and a 15 foot usb cable to my laptop. They say it won't work, but it does and it's stable. Easiest method i found is usb cable to the axe for tempo sync, bi-directional midi to the mmgt for tempo light and fx control. I wouldn't try to run axe edit or any other editors while performing, but thats just me. Good luck at fractal, I have found Ron to be VERY helpful, tho your question crosses hardware platforms, so its a deep lake to fish in.

 

[Bubule]

Thanks a lot for your help.

I passed a large part of my Sunday to search trough Fractal forum how other people do. I didn’t find someone able to do what I want without problems. It seems there is no way to sync Axe-Fx.
Send a bpm via Ableton yes, but be in sync, not. All informations I read were before 2014, probably up to date... Perhaps now something change with Quantum. I have to ask… And test by myself.
But if it works for you, no reason it doesn’t work for me.

15 foot is short for me. I’ll try to work with small USB first. If it works, I’ll make a longer by myself with shield. It’s possible my keyboard player has a hub powered same as yours, I’ll ask.

Franck

 

[Shanesplanet]

15 foot (5 meters) is the standard longest length for usb 2.0. Im not saying you cant go farther (i made it to 18' once), but dont hold your breathe. Just like 500ma is usb 2.0 standard max, so is 5 meters. Signal degradation is an issue. Of course, finding a quality cable can also be a chore.

As for the axe sync to ableton: I dont know why I am the only one that can make it work. ALl i did was hook the usb cable to the axe and check 'sync' in ableton's midi output preferences. I dont know if its a perfect sync, but it looks and sounds really damn close. Your audio latency does effect midi latency in windows btw. I am horrid at guitar, so I rely on effects to make me tolerable. A TON of verbs and delays that require sync. Sometimes I sound a shade off tempo, but I have tested 60bpm up to 200 bpm, and it does seem to follow. With the mmgt clock set to off, but an IA button set to 'flash with tempo", named tempo), the mmgt light flashes pretty close in sync with the axe. It close enough i call it a win. I did get the mmgt to lock sync to my dsi tempest perfectly.

I must admit, these challenges are what drives me. I hate the issues, but LOVE the challenge. Besides, how do you get that HOORAY moment when it all works too easily? Now if only the fans had ANY clue of what we go thru to make memorable performances.

 

[Bubule]

Hello,

Thanks for your video, I forward to my keyboard player. Probably helpful for him : As we spoke few days ago, he’s afraid having issue with new device inside his loop, and I understand... Probably this will reassure him.

In order to check what we have to do.
He just has to 'sync' in ableton's midi output preferences. No CC# to send ?
Do I have to do something in my Axe ?
On GT, just an IA button set to 'flash with tempo" and take off normal Tempo button or actions below it.

For extra USB length, I saw some repeater. It's probably a nice way to try (second target).

I prepared a message for Fractal forum, but didn't post it yet, probably your way is enough.

 

[Shanesplanet]

Yup, you got it. I haven't tried a repeater, Ive read lotsa bad things. Of course i also read a hub doesn't work very well either. As far as that goes, I think its a matter of trial and error, since it depends on how your computer and hub act together. AS for 'in the loop', you kind of aren't, in your scenario. Think of it as more a branch off the main, TO yours. Just checking the 'sync' output box is enough, if you don't want control over his daw, or allow his daw to control your buttons(just the axe tempo). There are no other settings in the axe. Just send a clock from ableton into the usb of the axe and you are free to sync an AI to the tempo on your axe. NO cc's needed. In fact, you will disable ALL messages on the AI button you are letting flash with tempo. I made mine global and made sure it was 'on messages only', so it wouldn't become its own tempo and combine with what the axe was sending. I also made sure to set the tempo for my presets at 0, so the tempo ai wouldn't start on its own, then double when the axe sent a message. There may be another way around it, but i don't mind my solution. So much harder to explain than do. I use bidirectional midi to the mmgt, but I assume it would also work with 2 cables. As a side note, I use the mmgt midi input for my trapkat drumkit, and it sends thru to the axe, which sends into my daw for vst drums. I was THRILLED when i realized i needn't use another midi interface nor usb cable. Best of luck, let me know how goes..

 

[Bubule]

Hello,

Some news...

Last tuesday we went with keyboard player one hour before practice in order to test communications. We connected my AxeFx to his computer with USB
First, Ableton didn't see my Axe-Fx.
We tried to find where was the problem and passed a lot of time before finding a way. Ableton's computer need a driver to see my Axe.
So it needs to download it on fractal site. After that, Ableton saw my AxeFx. Nice !

Second step, send the sync to my AxeFx.
We saw my tempo lights on Axe and MMGT flashes at the same time as Ableton. Awesome !
But... I see all beats with the same way. And I have to see the strong beat .
Time pass, and all musicians where here, so, we had to stop our tests. We'll see next time how to do to see only the strong beat.
If you know how... Tell me !!

Franck

 

[Shanesplanet]

making the ONE beat more visible is something I fooled with some. Having to choose colors carefully and then adjust abletons midi track to makeup the latency, made it tolerable. However, for what you are asking, you may as well set up an ai button to respond to midi commands and have a track in ableton sending the midi messages to use a visual click track. I did this a little bit and made the 4th count of each measure longer. Works okay, but a big pita to get just close. Dont forget how you will always miss the first note of the first measure anyhow, due to midi latency issues. If you want a customizeable visual referance, have a bunch of clips made up in ablton, and just send them to external gear. If you warp the clips, your track and reference will follow whatever tempo ableton is being told to pursue. Hell, you might as well load some clips up with your preset pc's and such. THEN you have a way to automate patches w/o being near the mmgt at times. Also gives ou a good mapping in the daw In the studio, I let clips automate envelopes within the axe unit. lotsa good info on the types of beat clock midi uses. Not ALL of them recognize the beats and measures, some just rely on averaging the timing of the messages sent. Hence, workarounds needed to see the actual beat you're on, rather than the summed timing of the track.

 

[Bubule]

Yeah ! A lot of nice possibilities. I imagine some automates things (like calling scenes or presets directly), but first, keep the main way Be on sync !!

Now, I have my tempo light flashind in sync with Ableton and drummer clicks. It's a first nice thing.
As you said, you don't use a tempo mode, but only an AI button flashing with Ableton command. Can I make the same beside the tempo button ?
If Ableton is able to send only a command during the strong beat, I'll have both. One button flashes each beat (normal tempo screen), and an other only during the strong beat.

Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of information Ableton must have on DAW for flashing a screen on my mmgt? Is it possible to send it thru my AxeFX ? (AxeFx is sync by USB from our keyboard's computer now) What kind of CC# do you send ?

Franck

 

[Shanesplanet]

the axe doesnt pass midi clock from usb thru to its outputs. At least mine wont act as an interface. Wikki has a paragraph about it. TO snyc the MMgt to ableton, its easiest for me to setup a device called ableton on a channel. You can easily control the button states by drawing in cc envelopes in ableton and linking ai states for the button. The actions have to match. Its tough to explain, but easily done. Its on page 37 of the manual. I can send cc via usb thru the axe and it controls the button states via bidirection midi out on the mmgt. I sync the axe to the daw via usb, then i have a button setup to show the axe tempo and another that is a simple ai controlled by ableton for an actual beat marker. I have Midi clock on the mmgt off, it isnt really being a clock, its just referancing ableton and axe clock. They rarely flash in time with each other, i think its becasue the axe timing ref is a summation, and the ableton marker is not. Probably some latency happening as well. http://www.rjmmusic.com/manuals/Mastermind GT Manual-3.4.pdf

 

[Bubule]

Ok, Axe doesn’t pass midi clock from USB, ... but as we saw few days ago, my MMGT tempo screen flashes in sync with Ableton thru my AxeFx (IIXL+). I don't need to change it. It pass thru the USB.
Sure, it was AxeFx which was in sync and sent its tempo to my MMGT thru its bidirectional Midi-Out.
I just need to complete it

I can send cc via usb thru the axe and it controls the button states via bidirection midi out on the mmgt . .. i have a button setup to show the axe tempo and another that is a simple ai controlled by ableton for an actual beat marker.

I hope I understand (for sure you know English is not my language) … But this is exactly what I need !!

So, I understand it’s possible to send a CC thru the same USB (Mac/Ableton > Axe) and having a screen on MMGT reflects this CC. (Probably with some latency...but if it's always the same...).
We can dream Ron read this thread and will able to change the color light of the tempo screen only on this CC beat.

When you said :

its easiest for me to setup a device called ableton on a channel. You can easily control the button states by drawing in cc envelopes in ableton and linking ai states for the button. Its tough to explain, but easily done.

Could you explain exactly how you do ?

It's really difficult for me to see and tests a lot of things. Ableton and all keyboards' hardware are not mine and a bit far from me. So again, I have to imagine maximum and burn my brain before plug and try few minutes before a practice ...

Also,

The actions have to match

Do you use a free CC (22 to 31), specific or one you use for something ?

 

[Shanesplanet]

I create a device called "daw" and it gets its own channels and commands. That is the messages i use to program from the daw. This makes it easier to put the action as first. If the action matches the message you send from ableton (and have cc link enabled), the button state is controlled. As for drawing envelopes in ableton, thats an ableton question youll find easily. What i can recommend most is to expect it t o take a few minutes to figure out, so don't rush it. Also, you can run a usb to the mmgt and just control everything from it. You MAY find that the usb to the mmgt is more stable than running thru the axe. So many options, it would take me a loong time to try and explain, and im pretty darn bad at it. fwiw i use cc 10 on channel 8, but its no matter which. Im sending notes at the quarter note, but the last quarter note gets a stutter so i can see the ONE beat is coming. Works VERY Well since you can adjust you envelopes to offset any latency. Its pretty damn accurate tho. Controlling the mmgt via usb and letting it control the axe (and tempo) MAY prove an easier way, and you wont need ANYthing other than one midi cable going to the axe from the mmgt.

 

[Bubule]

Thanks Shanesplanet,
I see some videos and begin to hunderstand how Ableton works with what you explained.
I think I'll take Ableton lite (Free) and going to test by myself all your suggestions before apply with my keyboard player.
I should have all I need with my computer. I should have only USB plugs on it, but I've got a midi/usb interface in a drawer.

 

[Shanesplanet]

Good luck! Its similar to opening Pandora's box. Just don't be tough on yourself for the first 6 mos. As with any daw, theres a learning curve, and ableton is definitely not an exception. Let us know of how goes in the future.

 

[edwinstar]

Hey Bubule!
I am wondering: Do you want Ableton to change your Presets during a Song, or do you just want Midiclock Sync? What are your Effects that need Time information? Thanks!

 

[Bubule]

Hello,

I'm working on yesterday and this morning.
I installed last week Ableton lite for test by myself (without my keyboard player who can't take to much time for that)
I want to see the sync tempo AND the downbeat on my MMGT16.
That I tried :
- All tempos synchronized. - It works, just need to plug a USB cable and declare 'Sync' in Ableton's output in front of AxeFx box
This is ok to have all delays sync, the tempo button on MMGT flashes also in sync, but it's not enouth for what I need.

I try to make an envelope like this


Before, I tried to change some scenes with envelopes, It worked well.
So, I declared a CC#96 on the MMGT tempo's button (and took off the tempo toggle). CC#96 is Volume 4 bypass in the AxeFx. It works well and without latency for the volume, but there is too much latency for the MMGT. Sometime the button change its state, sometime not. I tried to put the red part of the envelope for the half measure part. It was the same. Too much latency.
I tried also to change the channel and declare a second channel on Ableton and MMGT (Channel 2). It doesn't work. I've made a mistake or USB doesn't pass through the Axe to the Midi MMGT wire.

So, as I have a Midi/USB interface, I try to connect my computer directly to the remote MMGT input.
I declare a new clip on Channel 2 for MMGT.
I also declare CC Toggle #96 off:0 on:127 and Turn on the CC Link checkbox in button settings.

Like this, it works nice. For fun, I tried to put 2 flashs in one measure (like the picture above), it works.
But through the midi remote plug. And I can't see the tempo anymore.

Now, I have to see both : Tempo, and the downbeat.
I tried to connect USB to the Axe and Midi remote in same time. The tempo goes crazy.
I have to work to find a better way...

Franck