How do YOU use YOUR H9 with the PBC 10?

[Josh Demolar]

This is part gear-nerd-discussion-topic and part question/problem, but I have an H9 in a stereo loop on my PBC 10 and have been trying to think of how to optimize its use on my pedalboard, particularly regarding dry signal and parallel/series in various amp configurations as I use it for different effect types.

My goal is to have my PBC presets work across stereo, mono, W/D, or W/D/W configurations without having to change anything on the PBC's presets. My board is set up with three outputs and a couple utility devices to externally mute my dry amp and/or sum the stereo signal so that my configuration is separate from my preset programming.

I use TimeLine and BigSky for most of my delay/reverb, and the H9 is mainly used for the few cases where I need tremolo, chorus, pitch shifter, or other less frequently used effects. However, I do like the delays and reverbs on the H9 and may use those from time to time too. Therefore, I have it placed in loop 8, after the TimeLine and before the BigSky to enable me to use the H9 to replace either of those two pedals while still following the general convention of "first delay, then reverb."

I have my H9 set to kill dry at the global level and by default run it in parallel, similar to how I set up the Strymons. This is ideal for delays and reverbs, and works ok with chorus since that's typically an effect that uses a combination of wet and dry signal. But for tremolo, pitch shifting, and many other effects, I obviously want to use it without the dry signal, or in series rather than in parallel.

I've been thinking about how to approach this to allow flexibility with my different configurations (e.g., my dry signal is off and locked that way when running in W/D or W/D/W) and to not have to use completely different H9 presets in a song if I'm playing with 1 amp vs. 2 or 3 amps.

What I'm currently thinking is to set the global default on the H9 to dry signal ON, but any delay or reverb I can use kill dry on the preset level. Then my default on the PBC would be to run it in series with the line mixer set to use the dry signal.

Has anyone done something similar? How do you set it up? Interested to hear about different implementations.

 

[AlexMania]

Just some random thoughts that might be helpful. You can use the insert loop to split the signal (since it's buffered) and take one output of the split as your 'dry.' The second output of the split goes back to the PBC Insert 'In' and then to your modulations / reverb pedals. The output of the PBC is your 'wet'. I have a PBC6 and an H9 and determined (for me, anyway) that the cost of stereo was too high. W/D is super easy but as soon as you go Stereo on the H9, you're committed because it senses what's plugged into it and if you have both outputs connected, you're in Stereo no matter what you do, so you can't do W/D anymore.

I'm also seduced by stereo, but have found that it creates more 'mush' in a band setting than it's promise for angels and teddy bears. In my experience (and YMMMV), W/D can give the best combo of clarity, 'bigness', and control. If you do want to do Stereo, then you can take the stereo output of the Timeline instead of the H9, as that can give you more flexibility, but now we're splitting signals twice.

Obvious conclusion is that you need two boards. Go shopping. You're welcome.

 

[Josh Demolar]

Haha! As much as I would love to find an excuse to buy more gear, that’s not going to happen as I have gone through a couple years of overspending on gear and need to get back on track. To clarify, my board can sum the stereo signal after the L and R outputs from the PBC (I’m using the Underfacer from Goodwood Audio). So stereo vs. W/D (or W/D/W) isn’t really an issue unless you mean something else when you say you’re committed once you go stereo. I agree about the clarity of W/D, but I also find stereo to be an inspiring sound as well.

If anything, I would say with the PBC 10 you’re committed once you choose which loop it will go into since you can’t change the loop order. If you use it mostly for modulation, putting it into one of the first 6 loops makes sense, but if you want stereo capability and/or to put it in parallel then loops 7-10 are required.

My current solution works ok, but I do find myself frequently fiddling with the H9’s config to get the sound just right - kill dry and series/parallel on the PBC, and kill dry on the H9.

Examples of effects and how they sound best:
Chorus - H9 dry signal on, PBC loop in parallel, PBC dry signal on or off sounds ok
Panning Tremolo - H9 dry signal on, PBC loop in parallel, PBC dry signal off
Delays and Reverbs - H9 dry signal off, PBC loop in parallel, PBC dry signal on

It’s all do-able and editable by preset on the PBC. And it can work on either stereo or W/D, but that’s what really introduces the challenge since stereo uses the PBC’s dry signal most of the time while W/D locks the PBC’s dry signal off. I can probably make that work anyway though since I think the H9’s dry signal will have the same dry signal setting on any given H9 preset in either scenario.

I guess it’s mostly a matter of putting in some time to try different permutations... but I thought I’d check with the community to see if others have dealt with similar challenges.

 

[AlexMania]

Definitely not as involved as you configuration wise. Inspiration is a funny thing. Stereo at home futzing around, yah. Sure thing. Out and about? Not so sure.

What I do is take the Insert loop as a dry out into a Lehle P-Split, which then goes back into the PBC's wet loops. The isolated output of the p-split is then my dry. The output of the PBC then goes to the H9 and I can stereo out then I suppose. You could take the stereo feed from there and that would give you wet dry and stereo.

I don't keep the H9 in a loop. It's outside the PBC and I turn it on / off via CC's.

 

[Josh Demolar]

Makes sense. And true, stereo on a gig may have diminishing returns... playing two amps through a mono sound system, or just not having both your L & R signal be heard on both sides of the venue... but on a silent stage with in ear monitors it at least sounds great to ME, which helps me to feel it and get a stronger connection to my playing when I can’t have the amps right behind me. I dunno, I go back and forth on stereo vs. W/D.

On the PBC 10, by not having the H9 in a loop, I lose the ability to use it in parallel, as well as keep my dry signal pure analog (if that matters... I’m a purist, but I’m coming around).

Thanks for humoring my question. Always good to geek out on gear.

 

[AlexMania]

Truth is that geeking out on gear is our oxygen.

The fun / nerve wracking thing is to find players who make such radically different choices, which work for them. It's nerve wracking because I can never get that sound playing their rig. I get some version of their sound. If I try their setup at home, it's not even in the same neighborhood.

When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. No matter what gear I use or how I use it, I sound like 'me' (for better or worse). Whatever inspires you that doesn't hurt anyone else is AOK in my book. I found the blackhole algo on the H9 to be a fantastic lush reverb that while not stereo, or even WD, is inspiring and gets me there. YMMV.

When the PBC allows me to swap orders on the fly, I'll throw it in a loop. I experimented with it having flangers before dirt and I like the sound of a flanger before dirt sometimes. Musical context, but also death by nuance. I'm waiting for someone, anyone, ever, to walk up to me after a show and tell me I could have connected emotionally better with the audience had I just put my Morning Glory after my flanger on the third song.

Not holding my breath. My rig has an Iridium as an amp model, through a compact power amp into a guitar cabinet with a 12" celestion blue in it. I don't use IR's and I don't try to make the 1X12 cab sound like a 4X12 closed back. I do make it sound like a 2X12 pretty accurately and double bling AB'ing my rig (my buddy is playing through the rig and another buddy is switching between the modeled rig and a real AC30.

With my back and the player's back to the amps and the switching, we had no clue which was which almost all the time and picked the model from the real amp about half the time and we were wrong about which was which about half the time. That's with musician's ears. I regularly blow other guitar player's minds when they keep looking where the AC30 or Marshall heads I have connected to my cabinet are.

My rig more reflects the need of quickly running WD or mono using the Iridium's amazing amp models and then using real cabinets.

 

[middle_pickup]

Your problem is best solved with a hardware change. We really need some sort of device that can toggle between two different signal routings. Ideally this would be a device with two stereo ins and outs that can be addressed via midi. Basically what I'm describingis a midi controlled pair of stereo A/B boxes. Such a device is obviously incredibly niche, and as such we are unlikely to see it readily available. It would likely have to be a custom shop sort of thing. My crude artwork below shows a simplified use of A/B boxes to achieve two separate routings with an H9.

I personally think this would make a great open source hardware project for the pedal community. If I knew how to build electronics, I would do it.

 

[Josh Demolar]

Not sure I follow. Are you suggesting to have a way to bypass the Strymons and have the H9 go straight to the amps? Or a way to change the order so that the H9 can go before or after the Strymons?

 

[middle_pickup]

I'm suggesting a way to change the pedal order. I made a couple of mistakes in that pic. Here is the correct wiring for placing the H9 at two points in a signal chain. The first is mono, and the second would be stereo.



Obviously, no one is going to wire this up on their board. It's a proof of concept. Ideally, you would want a single box with all of this IO onboard, and hopefully, a TRS jack to switch it all with.

Updated with corrected diagram.

 

[Josh Demolar]

Yeah that would be cool. As I understand it, the PBC 6X (and at least one other switcher on the market) have a martrix that allows you to programmatically change the order. I haven’t looked into whether they support stereo signal too because honestly I don’t care as much about reordering my pedals as I do about having parallel paths. Having my H9 between my delay and reverb is a small trade off that I’m ok with. I just need to make sure I figure out dry signal and parallel/series config per preset, which is also an acceptable compromise I made to have a single pedal for multiple lesser-used jobs like chorus and trem.