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EDIT: Got the GT-22! New user figuring out functionality.

Discussion in 'GT General Discussion' started by jondom22, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. jondom22

    jondom22
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    I've been intrigued with the RJM Mastermind for a while, and have been finding myself eager to finally make the jump. I'd love to gain the insights of those who have used the GT-16 and/or GT-22 and whether the size/weight and quicker foot access of the GT-16 outweighs the size/weight and extra buttons on the GT-22.

    I've read through the manual and good chunks of the wiki, as well as watching some videos. I've also played a bunch with the RJM editor which has been helpful, though there is some functionality that I can't access without the hardware in place.

    My rig in progress:

    Jazzmaster >
    Voodoo Lab Hex (Fuzz 1, Fuzz 2, OD, PLL, CT5, Ring Mod) >
    Morningstar ML5 (ClusterFlux, Phaser, Midi Murf, Prometheus DLX) >
    EQ >
    Clean Boost >
    Mood >
    Particle V2 >
    Radical Delay DX >
    Thermae


    Current Midi Signal Chain:
    DA Midi Baby (cycle between dirt stages and a couple of navigations on the MC-6) >
    Morningstar MC6-MKII >
    SA Reflex >
    Kenton Thru 5 >
    - - - DA Qconnect (Mood, Particle, Radical, Thermae)
    - - - HEX (might add Midi to CV converter for the MF-103 which would connect to this input)
    - - - ML5 (might add Midi to CV converter for the MF-102 which would connect to this input)
    - - - MF-108M
    - - - MF-105M

    Pedalplaygroun mockup of the rig in progress:
    https://imgur.com/a/4ttD1bj
     
  2. Neill00

    Neill00
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    Personally I like like to have as little as possible on the floor in front of me but that’s mainly because I also sing so I’m trying to keep things simple and as you pointed out size and weight for transport (and floor space) is an important consideration.

    I went with the GT10 and it’s plenty for me because I use Axe FX III so I have presets that can change the page I’m looking at so the only thing on the floor in front of me is what I need for that song. My GT10 is set up to control way more than 10 things but it just shows 10 at a time I never need more than that for any given song. In fact, it also controls my vocal processor for harmonies etc and also the BandHelper app on my ipad. So I think the fact that you’re using a bunch of different pedals and may not have a way to change pages that easily just by changing presets you may need more access as you will more likely be in the position in which you need to see everything. However you could just set up 2 or 3 pages giving you access to different things and set up one footswitch to cycle between the pages.

    It comes down to how many total buttons do you need access to for a show and what is the most you need access to for a given song. You should figure that out first. On the various pages that I use I have lots of redundant footswtiches, ie I always have my tuner, my page button and my Bandhelper controls all along the top 4 buttons on either side of the main display. The bottom 6 are for controlling my vocal processor and my Axe FX III. I change up what the bottom 6 Footswitches control depending on what I need for a given song.
    If for instance you only need access to 12 footswitches for any given song, you could set up the top 4 buttons for stuff you always need, Tuner, changing pages on the GT etc. If you only needed a total of 18 to 24 switches, it might be worthwhile to go with the 16 and just set up 2 pages and set up the page button to just toggle between the two. If the most you need is 22 switches and you just want everyting there all the time... the 22 might be the way to go and forget about the pages. So you really need to crunch the numbers as I said above how many buttons to do a show and how many for any given song.
     
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  3. touch33

    touch33
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    A very happy GT16 user am I, primarily b/c it fits the physical space available in my studio set-up and allows me to access the (oh-so-many) AxeFX3 functions I find I need regularly. That said, a few thoughts:

    1) Most of the live users I run into (both here on this forum and on-stage) gravitate to the 22. I know the last thing I’d want to do while playing AND singing would be to drill down a page or two to find the button I seek RIGHT NOW.

    2) It seems that most users occupy the top four buttons (on either side of the Main Display) with tap/tuner, GT-System “modes” and navigation (“page flip”) buttons, so with a GT16 you get 12 buttons to play with. I know there are times when an additional button or two would really help me stay on a single button page instead of toe-dancing around.

    3) The GT22 can often negate the need to have single buttons perform double-duty using the HOLD programming feature (a quick press does one thing, while a “press & hold” does something else/additional). Again, this can provide a simpler and more easily navigable panel layout, and the non-Hold buttons can often use larger text that is more easily read onstage.

    4) The GT22 provides a pretty heavy-duty XLR connector for attaching a single (long) “phantom power” cable (MIDI + power) between the GT and your gear/rack/whatev. The 16 uses a standard 7pin MIDI jack to accomplish the same thing. Since I consider the single-cable phantom method indispensable (even for studio use) this XLR can wind up being a Big Deal if you’re touring and/or a heavy-duty user.

    5) Last but not least, using a GT22 allows you to take advantage of the incredibly smart AND generous 22 users (@Alexander and @iaresee come to mind) who post their layout files for Idiots like me to learn from and/or blatantly copy/edit. Since I use a 16 I can’t just copy/use their files as-is... oh, the pain.

    6) oops — almost forgot: not to make your decision any harder, but ALL of the RJM products get you access to the phenomenal level of service and support provided by Ron, Sheri and everyone at RJM...

    So there,
    Bruce
     
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  4. jondom22

    jondom22
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    Thanks for the responses so far guys! I really appreciate it. I'm probably leaning towards the GT-22 since I have a ton of performance oriented buttons I'd like to use to control my Mood, Particle, Radical Delay DX, Cluster Flux, Reflex, etc. plus the standard IA, song/setlist mode, clock/tap, etc.

    One question that has been super hard to figure out that I thought someone may be able to answer...

    Let's say page 1 is where I keep some basic functions + 12 presets + IA mode for instant access of loops/bypass state of pedals. The presets on this page are NOT global buttons, and thus if I'd like to access them within my current song, I would need to go to page 1. Now, on page 2, I'd like to program a bunch of specific IA buttons that have each has a different Preset within their IA actions. Each of those Presets also have their own local page. If I step on an IA button on Page 2 that has its own Preset that has its own local page...
    - Will it open up said local page even though the Preset is being sent. within an IA Button?
    - Will this preset then override the main Preset bank on Page 1?
    - When you open a local Preset page, can you go back to the previous page (ie pressing IA button on page 2 with Preset that goes to its own preset local page, can I program a button within that Presets local page to "go back to previous page")?

    This probably isn't the standard usage for most people, but its important to me so that I can maximize the amount of IA buttons for various functions without running out of the page limit, or having to navigate around so many pages.

    An example of this would be as follows:
    - Page 2, button 12 = IA button called "Mood Live"
    - That IA button contains a Preset called "Mood Live," that also has its own local preset page.
    - The local preset page has approx IA buttons programmed for specific CCs to control the Mood Live.
    - Some are simple like Bypass, others cycle through things like mix level...
    - Others contain A FURTHER PRESET within them such as "Mood Clock"
    - "Mood Clock" Preset has its own local page that has another 18 IA buttons programmed, 11 of which are CC's to simply change the clock rate on the Mood, and another 7 for other quick functions (tape speed/direction CC's, and maybe some bypass states), and the other 4 for navigation back to previous pages or other stuff.

    Here's a very quick mockup of what that might look like:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here's the board in progress (GT would go on the side)
    [​IMG]
     
    #4 jondom22, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  5. touch33

    touch33
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    Srsly? Get a 22. Or two. :)
     
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  6. jondom22

    jondom22
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    Bump to see if anyone had an answer to my questions in post #3. Thanks so much!
     
  7. rjmmusic

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    Yes

    Yes

    Yes
    You would use an IA button with a "System / Preset preset: Prev" action on it to get the job done.
     
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  8. jondom22

    jondom22
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    Thanks so much for the responses Ron! Some follow up questions:

    If I was in song mode, and had page 1 with my main song presets going, and then went to page 2 and hit multiple other presets via IA buttons, it would override the preset list on Page 1. Is there a way to restore the presets back to the same song I was on in page 1? The only command I see is system > preset > previous, but that doesn't seem like it would necessarily restore the song's preset list, especially if I end up hitting multiple other presets. The only other thing I could think of would require going back into the song menu or something (which I can't see how that functions without the hardware)?

    I know it sounds complicated so I thank you sincerely for your time and effort. The reason for doing all of this is because I'd like distinct pages for on-the-fly manipulation of my different effects via CCs and other functions, as well as having other pages dedicated to presets that I've programmed that might not be part of the current song mode, and thus I'd quickly run out of the 16 pages available...hence the workaround of using Presets with local pages within IA buttons to expand the number of available pages.


    Thanks so much for your responsiveness and for the amazing customer service!

    Side Note: If you do end up adding LFO output capability that would be sooooooo amazing! :)
     
  9. rjmmusic

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    Are the presets you're recalllng on page 2 part of the current song? If not, my answer above is incorrect. When you use an IA button to recall a preset outside of the current song, the preset will load, and any actual Preset buttons will stay the same, except that none will be highlighted. You can still select any preset from the current song when you return to page 1.
     
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  10. jondom22

    jondom22
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    Awesome! Ya the application would be that page 1 has the presets visible for the current song I'm in, and page 2-15 would have IA buttons (plus other buttons), some of which would have other presets not within the current song as part of their IA actions. The reason for that would be to use those other presets not within the song to open up their own local pages to do things like access CCs for manipulation of fx.

    So to clarfiy:
    - Page 1 = Song presets
    - Page 2 = IA with non-song presets
    ---- Presets opened from page 2 that are not within song, open up their own local page without effecting the presets on the current song of page 1, so that I can navigate back to page 1 and go to the next part of the song.

    Thanks again for all of the responses and clarification. It's an extremely versatile product with a lot of complexities to understand.
     
  11. jondom22

    jondom22
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    Officially ordered the GT-22. Excited to get programming, gonna be a lot of fun creating macros for the moogerfoogers and using dedicated pages for experimental delay/loop/glitch pedals.

    Thanks everyone for your help, especially Ron for the great pre-sales customer service.
     
  12. rjmmusic

    rjmmusic
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    Thanks for the order!!!
     
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  13. jondom22

    jondom22
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    GT-22 Has Arrived! It's really amazing just turning on the physical device and going through its menu system. So far have got the device talking to the computer editor, writing my saved testing platform to it, and writing updates to device. Figured out the midi clock tempo (thanks to the other thread), and exploring some of the features that can't be seen from the editor (song/setlist/page/preset menus, IA cycles and groups, etc).

    The one thing I can't figure out for now is that while I have the GT-22 set as the master clock, with an IA button set for Flash Tempo/Show Tempo/Update on preset change (which works great for sending midi clock as I tap), it resets to 120bpm any time I click on a Preset Button (even if the Preset button is set to tempo = same, or tempo = off). I also have calculate tempo from flashes set to on (though wasn't sure if I should be using that).

    Schedule is a lil crazy now, so I won't be able to get too in depth with it, but I'm taking notes and observations as I go for any troubleshooting down the line.
     
  14. jondom22

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    Anyone know if Button Groups are global, or if they are independent of page?

    I have dozens of pages where I want to use footswitches to cycle between cc values for things like delay time or LFO rate of devices. It seems like using button groups is the only way to turn off the other buttons?

    Ie. page 10 has 16 buttons each sending cc 82 with a different value. I’d like only for one of the button visual indicators to be on at any given time (solution = button group). But there are only 12 button groups available on the global page (and so I can only do this for 12 different device parameters as opposed to 100).
     
  15. rjmmusic

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    Button groups are global and span all pages. You can use the System / Set IA action to allow one button to turn off others. It's more flexible than groups and you can effectively have 255 "groups" using that feature.

    To implement a group - set IA ID to the same valur for all of your buttons in a group (any number from 1-255 is acceptable). Make sure these buttons are set to Group=None. Then, on each button in the group, add a System / Set IA #x off:None on:0, where x is the IA ID number of the buttons in the group. When this button is activated, it will search for all other buttons with that IA ID and set their state to 0 (off). System / Set IA doesn't affect the button that was actually pressed, even if that button has the same IA ID.
     
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  16. jondom22

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    Hey Ron, this kinda worked but it has an issue.

    I have 12 buttons on a page that changes the Delay Time Subdivision on my Moog MF-104M. Each button is sending CC 90 with a value between 1-127 for it's subdivsion, and I keep it the on and off value the same so if I press on it again it will stay on that subdivision.

    Last night it worked perfectly using the Button group method to simply turn off the other buttons. I just tried using the "Set IA" method, and while it was successful in turning off the other buttons, the subdivision time is now not accurate. Whereas before a 1/4 note division (cc 90, value 70) would stay on quarter notes of the bpm clock, now for some reason it's going at about 50% of the speed (so playing back 1/2 notes).

    EDIT: ADDED...1 thing I noticed is that if I hit 1/4 Notes button again (so it's back to its off state, and all of the other buttons in the Set IA group are also off), then it sends the correct delay time subdivision. So it seems to be something conflicting with the On message for the new button I press with the Off message for the button that was previously pressed.

    I have All buttons set as follows:
    IA ID: 20
    Button group: None
    Send On Preset change
    Update on Preset Change

    IA Action messages:
    1) CC 90, value "x" for both on/off message for the subdivision.
    2) System > Set IA > ID = 20, Off = None, On = 0

    Troubleshooting:
    - Tried reversing the order of the 2 messages.
    - Tried Checking "Only On Messages"
    - Tried setting the off value for CC 90 as "0," and as "none."

    Any ideas?

    Additionally, wasn't sure if you saw my previous post, but I got the Midi clock working for tapping in tempos, but it always resets to 120bpm if I choose a new preset.

    Thanks!

    Jon
     
    #16 jondom22, Aug 1, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  17. rjmmusic

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    The off value on the BPM button is the problem. That's one difference between groups and set IA - groups have a "Send off messages" setting you can turn off, set IA does not.

    You should be able to set the off value to Same instead of an actual numerical value. That probably will fix the problem.
     
  18. rjmmusic

    rjmmusic
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    My best guess with the 120BPM issue is that you have an IA button that is programmed to set 120BPM, and that button has Send on Preset Change turned on, causing it to set that tempo every time you change presets. Turning off Send on Preset Change should fix that.
     
  19. jondom22

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    Not sure I follow what you're referring to as the BPM button.

    I'm my page, each of the 12 buttons are IA Buttons that have a Set IA Action (ID = 20, Off = None, On = 0), and then they also have a CC Toggle Action set to change the delay time subdivision (CC 90, Off = 53, On = 53...obv each button isn't 53).

    I'm not seeing a "Same" Option under either the Set IA Action or the CC Toggle Action for either On or Off Value.

    EDIT: As another test, I set up 2 IA Buttons as follows:
    Button 1: Mix Fully Wet (CC 14, On Value = 127, Off Value = 127)
    Button 2: Mix Fully Dry (CC 14, On Value = 0, Off Value = 0)
    Both buttons have IA ID 30, No groups, Set IA Action to ID 30, Off = None, On = 0. Both have Send on preset change/update on preset change checked.

    When I click on the fully dry button (value 0), it will actually sound fully wet even though its "On color" indicates it should be in the "on position." If I clock it again, it will turn to fully dry (so its "off state" is sending the correct CC). If I click it one more time, it goes back to fully wet even though the cc should be fully dry (though again the button is in its "on position color.")

    So what i think is going on is that the IA Action is actually sending the CC value of whatever the previous button that was pressed within that group (though I'm not sure if it's the off or on value). Changing the order of the IA Action (Set IA then CC toggle vs. CC toggle then set IA) had no effect. Neither did turning off Update On Preset Change/Send on preset Change.

    - - -

    As far as the overal Midi Clock resetting to 120bpm with each preset, your solution fixed that! Works exactly as intended now! Thanks
     
    #19 jondom22, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  20. rjmmusic

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    I figured you had an IA button with a System / BPM action, that's what I was referring to.

    If you're using a group, there's a setting for each group "Send off messages" in the Globals tab. If that setting is turned on, pressing a button in the group will send two buttons' messages: the button that's turning on and the button that's turning off. If "Send off messages" is turned off, then only the button being turned on will send its messages.
     
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